The philosophical underpinnings of the comments in this thread (Stack?) are much like blind folks describing an elephant after feeling one with their hands and listening to it’s trumpeting and movement. None of the descriptions are “right,” but none of them are “wrong” either. They are merely observations of the same animal from one person’s perspective. Yet, each comment writer will defend his personal “elephant” observation, or belief, as “more correct” than the others. But none of the commenters take a position that describes the entire elephant.
The Founders and authors of the Constitution and Bill of Rights were faced with a dilemma when the documents were actually written. Their collective challenge was the absolute requirement to describe the “elephant” as a summary of the many diverse opinions, beliefs and observations of everyone in the “room” (and of the 13 original states). Otherwise, none or only a few of the participants (and states) would agree to sign it and be bound by its terms and conditions.
Further, their intentional designs were to have lives beyond any of the Founder and Signers. Thus, the included prohibitions against tyrannical and religious control or domination. At the same time, however, the intentional designs relied on the decisions and actions of later generations of people which could result in unintended consequences like the ones with Speaker Mike Johnson and the MAGA tyrant TFG.
With religion, the consensus was not to favor one but to protect the rights of each person and all persons living in America under the auspices of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, as amended from time to time, to pursue a religion, or any, or not, of that persons own choosing.
For tyrants and tyrannical factions, the implicit belief was that the People’s will and the independence of the judiciary would be self correcting and remove those threats.
But, as we now know, the sheer size of the anti-Constitutional religious and tyrannical factions bolstered by the relatively recent corporate personage and their political bribery schemes, along with the State’s gerrymandering actions to restrain voting rights for the specific purpose of electing a Christian infected GOP, are gelding the Constitution and Bill of Rights and excluding an effective voice of The People.
Had that consensus building effort not happened, my opinion is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights would look more like the Taliban’s version of religion than not. The versions proposed by Speaker Johnson, the TFG/MAGA faction, and corporate America are accomplishing the same thing.
Most people don't know the real history behind the Enlightenment's secular influence on the American Revolution, which was very radical at the time (and in many parts of the world even today). Thank you for this fantastic article!
"When we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God." (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason Part I, 1794)
Oh, yeah! Thomas Paine did not mince words!!! He spent almost a year in Paris with the Madisons, even living in their house at one point, in 1795, I think. There is a marvelous letter at the National Archives written by Paine that is a delight. It's here: https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-16-02-0053
Its interesting that the SCOTUS Christian majority is working to create a highly autocratic presidency. CS Lewis argues that democracy is the best form of governance. As we are all fallen and imperfect, democracy provides checks and balances against bad motives. How is creating an autocratic presidency and putting a malicious narcissist in the office going to result in a Christian culture?
The sad part is the particular strain of Catholicism that we see in the Supreme Court is NOT the only one. It is the intolerant strain that hates Pope Francis because he’s too nice. So many Catholics don’t know about or remember Liberation Theology and its emphasis on lifting up the poor and bringing about social justice. The Jesuits (including him) do… That’s why so many Catholics turned mean when Francis was selected (even though the churches teaching is that the Holy Spirit is moving within the whole process of selection). Kind of like how so many people turned mean when Obama won the presidency. It’s one thing to preach love and tolerance. It’s an entirely different thing when leadership openly advocates it 🙃
And then there’s some of us who got here in the 1600s … driven by money, war, slavery, prison, indentured servitude… We still keep the family history and smack around some of our inbred cousins who are straight up lying. Christianity my ass.
"Merciful Providence" and "Divine Good" sound like Academic terms, and reflect a Roman take on divination and statecraft would have been popular with an Academic like Cicero, who wrote the world's first constitution (which would not be discovered until the 19th century because St. Augustine wrote his City of God over it - once again Christians obscuring Deist legacies).
Unlike popular Greek and Roman religions, during the Golden Age of Greece they also discovered Reason. In Rome, being in government was considered a sacred duty, meant be the rule of the wise or "provident," imbued with the ability to divine God's will (statecraft, the art and science of government).
As universal ideals, it's not surprising to see future generations rediscover them after such dark ages. It is sad to see them abandon them. Thank you for shedding light with your beautiful essay.
People not religion or government are to blame. Really Don, did you really say that. You mean that Religion is not part of the problem, are you speaking from biblical teachings, the Bible lets say.
It is difficult and a challenge to continue reading an essay or even a news media report when the writers conclusions are obvious by his initial labels and characterizations. With that said, the writer should be knowledgeable, not from other sources who have gained traction over the ages, but from feet on the ground experience. Study and analysis of existing work, of course is acceptable, but only for background and prep.
People, not religion and governments, have distorted the truth from the beginning,+/- , this is the problem. What people believe or not believe will always be part of the equation. It is better for all to know what a person having authority believes, especially when they have the power to control others, and particularly when an election to public office is in play. A public official should have the right and responsibility to voice his thoughts on anything at any time. Bottom line, unless someone can materially not theoretically, demonstrate that someone has been injured, not a class of people, the electorate decides. If your a “fireman” take a lot of lessons before you start playing the violin.
Religions and governments have created huge and powerful propaganda machines to influence everything you think. They have practically dictated what's in your history books. If you don't think so, check with any Native American tribe or any African American (Bass Reeves of The Lawman was a black guy, not the white Lone Ranger who was based upon Bass Reeves, appearlywith the virtually non-verbal Tonto). This article, based on the most esteemed academic research of the last 50 years, efforts to correct the lies of people like Mike Johnson, not to mention the efforts of mainstream America in the last 250 years to lie about who actually created your Constitution and what they believed. And I appreciate your acknowledging that you, as we all do, will always see things through our own lenses, but some lenses are a damned sight cleaner than others!! And your attempt to declare, by fiat, what is an isn't injury ignore that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, that 12.5 million Africans were kidnapped and force-labored for the rest of their lives by whites who, on a good day, declared them just 60% human, the women who do 85% of the world's work and own just 3% of its wealth, and fact that King Leopold II had his goons in the Congo amputate hands and feet of Africans who held back some food for themselves rather than WASTE BULLETS on people he considered livestock. No sale, buddy. No sale.
History undeniable. Related to the present of course, kind of like my great, great, etc grand parents, who ever they where.
I often, at this time of the year, when a look up into the woods and trees, bare of leaves, what happened to last years leaves and, even the year before, By now you would think that after twenty years the leaves would be ten feet high. But, just like last year, it looks pretty much the same.
We look at the Sun and it’s always the same (lucky old sun, with nothing to do), it’s the same as it was when it radiated on all the events of history. Yes, I know, it will eventually use itself up. Science tells us, I think, related to the second law of thermodynamics. No problem.
When we call attention to the nastiness and shame of the past, we think of certain individuals, a person, Attila, Mohamed, Al Capone, Hitler, George Wallace, Bull Conner, Judas, Caesar, Alex the great, Jim Jones, Stalin, etc. and no offense, Calvin, the perpetrators of the Salem Witch trials, KKK. And the utter stupidity of the need for an American Civil War. Always people, enough to to collect a consensus. It doesn’t matter what their rational, method of governing, spiritual/religious beliefs were because, most people, for whatever reason do not have a high regard of themselves and none for their fellow man. So, in case it it hasn’t been mentioned, we should not be regarding all of this effort as philosophy or a debate......we must think “existentially”. We humans are the only creatures given the capability of abstract thinking.
We, in our limited natural state, are not able solve the problem permanently. This is beyond us and we should admit it. This is where it gets sticky.
Either we accept that there is more to our existence than we realize or we say, “this is it”, Some in the past have come close, some I believe have got it right but the ones we remember, the most........failed. We owe to all to be “seekers” for the highest calling. One last thought, The Ten Commandments are not, in themselves, bad, are they? Suppose that Moses story is not true, the idea of the Ten Commandments, as far as I can see, hurts no one. Not a law, but a really good idea. Don
And I stand with you.
Thank you!!
The philosophical underpinnings of the comments in this thread (Stack?) are much like blind folks describing an elephant after feeling one with their hands and listening to it’s trumpeting and movement. None of the descriptions are “right,” but none of them are “wrong” either. They are merely observations of the same animal from one person’s perspective. Yet, each comment writer will defend his personal “elephant” observation, or belief, as “more correct” than the others. But none of the commenters take a position that describes the entire elephant.
The Founders and authors of the Constitution and Bill of Rights were faced with a dilemma when the documents were actually written. Their collective challenge was the absolute requirement to describe the “elephant” as a summary of the many diverse opinions, beliefs and observations of everyone in the “room” (and of the 13 original states). Otherwise, none or only a few of the participants (and states) would agree to sign it and be bound by its terms and conditions.
Further, their intentional designs were to have lives beyond any of the Founder and Signers. Thus, the included prohibitions against tyrannical and religious control or domination. At the same time, however, the intentional designs relied on the decisions and actions of later generations of people which could result in unintended consequences like the ones with Speaker Mike Johnson and the MAGA tyrant TFG.
With religion, the consensus was not to favor one but to protect the rights of each person and all persons living in America under the auspices of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, as amended from time to time, to pursue a religion, or any, or not, of that persons own choosing.
For tyrants and tyrannical factions, the implicit belief was that the People’s will and the independence of the judiciary would be self correcting and remove those threats.
But, as we now know, the sheer size of the anti-Constitutional religious and tyrannical factions bolstered by the relatively recent corporate personage and their political bribery schemes, along with the State’s gerrymandering actions to restrain voting rights for the specific purpose of electing a Christian infected GOP, are gelding the Constitution and Bill of Rights and excluding an effective voice of The People.
Had that consensus building effort not happened, my opinion is that the Constitution and Bill of Rights would look more like the Taliban’s version of religion than not. The versions proposed by Speaker Johnson, the TFG/MAGA faction, and corporate America are accomplishing the same thing.
The separation of church and state. I guess the new speaker is unfamiliar with that term. 🙄
Most people don't know the real history behind the Enlightenment's secular influence on the American Revolution, which was very radical at the time (and in many parts of the world even today). Thank you for this fantastic article!
"When we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God." (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason Part I, 1794)
Oh, yeah! Thomas Paine did not mince words!!! He spent almost a year in Paris with the Madisons, even living in their house at one point, in 1795, I think. There is a marvelous letter at the National Archives written by Paine that is a delight. It's here: https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-16-02-0053
Do stick around. [s]
Baloney
Great piece!
I completely agree with you
There you are again, my friend! We do share ideas with others of a similar nature! 🕊️
Yay! Because I think you’re a good human being 💙
Its interesting that the SCOTUS Christian majority is working to create a highly autocratic presidency. CS Lewis argues that democracy is the best form of governance. As we are all fallen and imperfect, democracy provides checks and balances against bad motives. How is creating an autocratic presidency and putting a malicious narcissist in the office going to result in a Christian culture?
The sad part is the particular strain of Catholicism that we see in the Supreme Court is NOT the only one. It is the intolerant strain that hates Pope Francis because he’s too nice. So many Catholics don’t know about or remember Liberation Theology and its emphasis on lifting up the poor and bringing about social justice. The Jesuits (including him) do… That’s why so many Catholics turned mean when Francis was selected (even though the churches teaching is that the Holy Spirit is moving within the whole process of selection). Kind of like how so many people turned mean when Obama won the presidency. It’s one thing to preach love and tolerance. It’s an entirely different thing when leadership openly advocates it 🙃
Brilliant in content and timing. So glad I signed up.
And then there’s some of us who got here in the 1600s … driven by money, war, slavery, prison, indentured servitude… We still keep the family history and smack around some of our inbred cousins who are straight up lying. Christianity my ass.
Brilliant piece. 100%💙🇺🇸💙
This is great, plus gives great clarity.
“Crusades 2025”
"Merciful Providence" and "Divine Good" sound like Academic terms, and reflect a Roman take on divination and statecraft would have been popular with an Academic like Cicero, who wrote the world's first constitution (which would not be discovered until the 19th century because St. Augustine wrote his City of God over it - once again Christians obscuring Deist legacies).
Unlike popular Greek and Roman religions, during the Golden Age of Greece they also discovered Reason. In Rome, being in government was considered a sacred duty, meant be the rule of the wise or "provident," imbued with the ability to divine God's will (statecraft, the art and science of government).
As universal ideals, it's not surprising to see future generations rediscover them after such dark ages. It is sad to see them abandon them. Thank you for shedding light with your beautiful essay.
People not religion or government are to blame. Really Don, did you really say that. You mean that Religion is not part of the problem, are you speaking from biblical teachings, the Bible lets say.
Please clarify your statement.
Together we stand ...
Some thoughts for now, maybe, more latter.
It is difficult and a challenge to continue reading an essay or even a news media report when the writers conclusions are obvious by his initial labels and characterizations. With that said, the writer should be knowledgeable, not from other sources who have gained traction over the ages, but from feet on the ground experience. Study and analysis of existing work, of course is acceptable, but only for background and prep.
People, not religion and governments, have distorted the truth from the beginning,+/- , this is the problem. What people believe or not believe will always be part of the equation. It is better for all to know what a person having authority believes, especially when they have the power to control others, and particularly when an election to public office is in play. A public official should have the right and responsibility to voice his thoughts on anything at any time. Bottom line, unless someone can materially not theoretically, demonstrate that someone has been injured, not a class of people, the electorate decides. If your a “fireman” take a lot of lessons before you start playing the violin.
Religions and governments have created huge and powerful propaganda machines to influence everything you think. They have practically dictated what's in your history books. If you don't think so, check with any Native American tribe or any African American (Bass Reeves of The Lawman was a black guy, not the white Lone Ranger who was based upon Bass Reeves, appearlywith the virtually non-verbal Tonto). This article, based on the most esteemed academic research of the last 50 years, efforts to correct the lies of people like Mike Johnson, not to mention the efforts of mainstream America in the last 250 years to lie about who actually created your Constitution and what they believed. And I appreciate your acknowledging that you, as we all do, will always see things through our own lenses, but some lenses are a damned sight cleaner than others!! And your attempt to declare, by fiat, what is an isn't injury ignore that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, that 12.5 million Africans were kidnapped and force-labored for the rest of their lives by whites who, on a good day, declared them just 60% human, the women who do 85% of the world's work and own just 3% of its wealth, and fact that King Leopold II had his goons in the Congo amputate hands and feet of Africans who held back some food for themselves rather than WASTE BULLETS on people he considered livestock. No sale, buddy. No sale.
History undeniable. Related to the present of course, kind of like my great, great, etc grand parents, who ever they where.
I often, at this time of the year, when a look up into the woods and trees, bare of leaves, what happened to last years leaves and, even the year before, By now you would think that after twenty years the leaves would be ten feet high. But, just like last year, it looks pretty much the same.
We look at the Sun and it’s always the same (lucky old sun, with nothing to do), it’s the same as it was when it radiated on all the events of history. Yes, I know, it will eventually use itself up. Science tells us, I think, related to the second law of thermodynamics. No problem.
When we call attention to the nastiness and shame of the past, we think of certain individuals, a person, Attila, Mohamed, Al Capone, Hitler, George Wallace, Bull Conner, Judas, Caesar, Alex the great, Jim Jones, Stalin, etc. and no offense, Calvin, the perpetrators of the Salem Witch trials, KKK. And the utter stupidity of the need for an American Civil War. Always people, enough to to collect a consensus. It doesn’t matter what their rational, method of governing, spiritual/religious beliefs were because, most people, for whatever reason do not have a high regard of themselves and none for their fellow man. So, in case it it hasn’t been mentioned, we should not be regarding all of this effort as philosophy or a debate......we must think “existentially”. We humans are the only creatures given the capability of abstract thinking.
We, in our limited natural state, are not able solve the problem permanently. This is beyond us and we should admit it. This is where it gets sticky.
Either we accept that there is more to our existence than we realize or we say, “this is it”, Some in the past have come close, some I believe have got it right but the ones we remember, the most........failed. We owe to all to be “seekers” for the highest calling. One last thought, The Ten Commandments are not, in themselves, bad, are they? Suppose that Moses story is not true, the idea of the Ten Commandments, as far as I can see, hurts no one. Not a law, but a really good idea. Don